Consumed by Ego (Birdman)

Avery: 0:00

Welcome to Really Important Fictional Things. I'm

Rosey: 0:12

And I'm Rosey. And this is the podcast with the two long Avery. title that is both serious and that we analyze movies and TV like they're real because movies and TV change our reality and what we watch affects how we think about ourselves and our relationships, our jobs, really all the things in the whole world. And it's pretty important.

Avery: 0:33

It's really important. Yeah, it's really cool. So this week, we are going to be talking about Birdman. And I don't know if you can hear but I'm a little sick. We're a little lotic it was a lot more like two days ago. Luckily, it's not Corona according to two add home tests and a PCR tests, so this week, we're gonna do a shorty I'm virtual from home. And we're just going to talk about Birdman. We're gonna skip all the fun stuff of what we watched and the list at the end and everything so

Rosey: 1:11

yes, Birdman. Here we go.

Avery: 1:13

Here we go.

Rosey: 1:25

All right. Jumping into Birdman. I did I did write down a super quick synopsis, because I didn't know if this one would be as well known if you all I know it won an Oscar but I don't know how many people knew like what it was about.

Avery: 1:41

Yeah, I mean, I completely forgot. And I had seen it before. So

Rosey: 1:45

right. Okay, so this is very basic. But Birdman is a it won the Oscar in 2015. And it is a bout a male actor who wants played a superhero and is now staging a serious Broadway play to make his comeback. There you go. Michael Keaton is the lead. And I don't know if I can say his name correctly. Do you know how to say the director's name? Alejandro Gonzalez. In Ratu

Avery: 2:15

in your in your attic. I think it was I'm sure I'm not

Rosey: 2:18

saying it. Yeah, I'm sure I don't I can't speak any Alejandra, we're just gonna come out. Which I even that I can hear myself saying I'm like, what an American. I mean, yeah. So you'd already seen it. I had not. I didn't like it.

Avery: 2:36

Like, did you like it? I'm like, Yes. and No. Like, it made me angry and an hour and I was like, fuck this movie. I hate it. And then then the next 20 minutes, I was like, Oh, maybe I like this. It was like hard. We talked about this, we couldn't figure out if it was self aware about how shitty it was. And then what level of self awareness.

Rosey: 3:03

So I did read a handful of articles. And it was very self aware. Like the purpose of the movie was to show ego and how it can destroy you. So in that way, it was aware. I don't know. Like, I was watching it being like, like, I thought it was about white male ego. Not like ego in general. But yeah, that's debatable. Because there was like one article that was talking about, like, you know, Sam, the daughter has a lot of ego as well. It just shows up really differently.

Avery: 3:34

Yeah, but it shows up as like broken because she just says guys like telling her she has a nice ass all the time. And if dad has like, not available

Rosey: 3:43

Yeah, the big scene they talk about is like the scene where she yells at him and is like, you're not even on social media. Like you don't matter. And her ego is that she finds herself superior to him. But that is not how I watched that scene.

Avery: 3:55

Not at all. Yeah, I don't think she's thinks she's superior to him at all. I think he's completely destroyed her self esteem and she's like, lashing out

Rosey: 4:07

I mean, I mean, we've talked about this before a man wrote that article. Probably that's I should have checked I feel like like we talked before about the did I like it is it good? Like those don't have to be the same thing. The my thing with this one was like I don't even know if I think it was good or not good because I the whole time was like what am I supposed to be learning and it almost felt so meta that I felt almost stupid watching it like I felt like I was missing something like I wasn't in on it. Did you haven't like

Avery: 4:38

a little bit but I think what I realized or what I took away from it when I read into it is it was like I've met that person before. And the reason why they're so compelling is because they act like there's more under the surface and there's not and I think that's what the movie is like. It's an he's a narcissist. Yeah. Like he thinks that he is His life is this big dramatic thing. And this is like the inside of his head, right? The movie itself is also like that. Like I got to the point where he was he fell asleep on the street. Like after he buys the whiskey. And I was like, this is a very good movie. I understand why Hollywood liked it, and I'm enjoying it. And it's like, technically very interesting. And I'm entertained. But why are we seeing this guy's story again, like, this is the story that we've seen since Casablanca.

Rosey: 5:32

I was voted yes, I was about to ask you. Like, I don't mean this as a combative question. But like, Why did Hollywood like it? Like, why is it a very good movie?

Avery: 5:43

I think number one, it's very masturbatory about, like acting and art and why it matters and ego and stuff. So I think probably a lot of people in Hollywood saw themselves in this movie. That's a good point. Yep. And then I do think the one take thing, even though it wasn't actually one take right. Together. I thought that was really cool. I thought the acting was really high quality, and fun to watch as like someone that's been in theater before. I don't know if you felt this way, because you were in theater, too. I was kind of fun. I like backstage.

Rosey: 6:16

I agree with that. I did like the one tape thing. I do think it was technically impressive. Like I the lighting was amazing. The lighting was good. The tape was super cool. I'll talk about the music in a second because I looked up some stuff about that to the theater, like theater kid thing. I was laughing to myself being like, this is like theater adults. And it's scary. Like watching the theater kids all. I mean, we're generalizing. But yeah, I mean, they were all you were like I Evei none of you feel

Avery: 6:44

the same shenanigans. So high school, but these are like 3040 year old people, right? Like clearly miserable.

Rosey: 6:52

5060 year old people. Like how old is Michael Keaton in this? That's true. He's old. They're like adults. Yeah. And you're my pages. I wonder

Avery: 7:01

if he was playing a narcissist. Like in his own head because he's such a nurse says, like, he does all the things the narcissists, do where they like, make you love them. And they don't even really know that they're doing that. Yeah. And then in the next moment, they'll do something completely destructive and self absorbed and like ruin your life. You like can't rely on them at all.

Rosey: 7:26

No, no. And he does. I feel like I've heard the phrase, it's like becoming kind of a fad phrase, but like love bombing. And I feel like he does that. But in such like, yeah, that slow little seeping out way like I'm thinking of when he's talking to his ex wife and like telling her the story. And even that, it feels like you're watching him act like a narcissist. Like he's like, I know the beats to hit to get the thing I want out of this scene, or this interaction with you.

Avery: 7:50

That's interesting, because I didn't read it that way at all. Yeah, read it is very genuine, like that moment. And then also, when he's speaking to Naomi Watts, like telling her Oh, you're so beautiful. Like I saw that as really genuine but the narcissistic part of it for me is that he just he only sees people when they're right in front of him. Because they're a part of his life. He only relates to people as they matter to him that he does genuinely have like emotions about them.

Rosey: 8:25

Sure, sure. Yeah, he's not like a psychopath you know? No, no, yeah, no, I see that I part of it also could be that I kind of decided I didn't like him and then couldn't like he never became redeemable to me. I just kept being like Yeah, you like suck Oh, I like don't care about your I didn't care about his emotional journey. Like him being upset or if he failed or succeeded I was like, I like literally just don't

Avery: 8:49

care. See, I think that's a character difference between you and me when and where you're stronger than I am when it comes to these people sucking you in because like I've been in love with someone like that. Yeah, I was watching it and I was like, fuck I still fascinated by this person.

Rosey: 9:09

Well, okay, I was talking to my brother about this movie and he was I said the same thing about like, well when I don't care about the character is like success. I can't get that into it. And he will similar to you. He was like, Yeah, but I I do I can still care about how they're telling the story or what this character is doing in the story even if I'm not in my head like God, I hope you're okay or like I hope you do well. Like Like he's watching it for different reasons now than if you're watching a like super character driven emotional thing. Like I'm thinking of like parenthood versus Breaking Bad like the characters are driving the story in different ways. And I cuz when he said the character flaw thing, I feel like it's a character flaw of mine. I can't see beyond character if, like even if the plots really good If I'm uninterested in the characters and like, I don't care about the story now, like can't get into it.

Avery: 10:06

Well, I think you can't see me on the other definition of character when someone has like a flawed, well enough flawed, but like poor character. You can't root for them. Yeah, well, you need to be rooting for them, I guess, right?

Rosey: 10:19

Well, we've talked about this before, because you put it really succinctly to me when you were like, well, you care about justice. And I think that's what I get hung up on. If I'm like, Well, if I don't think you're a good person than I don't, or good character, I don't think your character is a good person that I sort of want you to fail. And now I'm not interested in your story. But a test a lot of things.

Avery: 10:41

Totally I think the reason why this person was compelling to me and I wanted him to succeed is the same reason why I fall in love with these people. And these people are like, attractive in person. I didn't want him to succeed for him. I wanted him to succeed for everyone else in his life, like everyone who depended on him and loved him. I know

Rosey: 11:02

that I can totally see that. My brain shut off before I could get there. I hear that. No, I get that.

Avery: 11:12

Yeah, sorry. We have that moment like redeeming moment with Emma, where she like lies on his chest. And he's, she finally has a dad. Yes. And then he like jumps out the window. I was like, fuck, dude, can you just like, be a good parent, like you clearly have the capacity to be a good person, but you're like not doing it? Because you're a narcissist.

Rosey: 11:34

I agree with you on that. I did get emotional during that like for Emma's sake.

Avery: 11:41

And even with the mom or her, his ex wife, like they had such a nice moment. And in his head, he was planning to kill himself the whole time. Like he wasn't thinking about how horrible that would be. For her. It was more important that he had that big dramatic moment. But she thought that they were like had a loving moment.

Rosey: 12:01

Yeah, I felt similarly in scenes with him with Zach Galifianakis this character, the lawyer guy who they clearly had been friends for. Not this it wasn't quite as like tender as it was with his family. But with him, there were times where he's like, can you just do what you say you're gonna do and calm down so that this guy do his job. There's even one super quick scene where he's like, it's Edward Norton's character is like drunk and destroying the set or whatever. And he walks off stage and says to the stage manager, I'm not sure what her job is. And it's like, Can you handle that? And she and he's like, Storm Away. And she was like, how would you? What how do I handle? And you're like, can you just give a little bit to these people like a little bit? Yeah, to your point, you could see it was like, you can do this. We want we've seen you do it. Just use blinders like you can't see outside, like to the left or the right.

Avery: 12:52

He's just consumed by himself. Zuniga.

Rosey: 12:56

Alexandra was saying like, even the fact that he's putting on a Raymond Carver play is like only an egg. The quote from Alejandro is only an ignorant man would attempt that. Like

Avery: 13:08

he's he's like saying that LA Hondo is also an artist.

Rosey: 13:12

I mean, but then I also saw a lot of articles. And now this brings us back to what you what we just said. But that said, like Reagan was a likable character. So like, you're not alone and feeling though. For sure. I seemed to be in the minority to be like, I don't care about this guy.

Avery: 13:29

How did you feel watching it? Did you like actively want him to fail? Or do you know, I didn't care? I

Rosey: 13:34

didn't care. That was what was odd. For me. I felt like kind of indifferent. I was like, I don't really care if this play goes well or not. I like it could all get shut down? That would be fine. Like, that's what was so odd for me. Like I couldn't get into his journey.

Avery: 13:52

And you weren't interested? Like you weren't invested in any one particular thing. And because of that you weren't interested. Right?

Rosey: 13:59

Gotcha. And some of the other technical elements I'm going to bring us to the music for a second was distracting to me. Like I thought jazz is not something I ever like, put on myself. I don't really know if I like it or not. I haven't heard much of it. But I kept getting distracted by the jazz, like I had to rewind a couple times and put captions on which I don't do because I was like, I'm like not listening to what you're saying. I'm getting distracted

Avery: 14:24

by that's so funny. Music. Yeah,

Rosey: 14:27

I mean, most people did. It was like very impressive and complimentary to the story. Like the feeling of the story.

Avery: 14:34

Yeah, I was thinking about it at one point of what the movie would be like without the music. It was so fucking boring because it's so much walking around. And the music is kind of like his emotions in his head like, but I want to go back to what you're saying about like being in like not being invested in any one particular thing. Like somebody like yellow jackets, do you have like a thing that you're invested? But while you're watching it, yes, like, I

Rosey: 15:02

want them to feel happy and like, get whatever they're looking for. I really want to know how they get off the island. Like, I feel like I have a few layers of things that I'm like rooting for to happen. Gotcha. Not necessarily super specific things, but like, I really feel for those girls or women, depending on the timeframe and care

Avery: 15:23

part of it. Yeah, I think part of it is that there was nothing good. That would have happened to him. Yeah, like good wasn't a possibility. Yeah, like, he didn't want good things.

Rosey: 15:35

Well, also, the good thing wasn't going to satisfy him. Like, even if it was a success, which it turned out to be, even. But well, that's a whole other thing to talk about the ending, like he kills himself on or attempts to kill himself on stage doesn't succeed, we're led to believe, and then like it, but it works. Like he gets all the things like his ex wife is there and loving him, his daughter brings him the flowers, he likes he, you know, the papers, the money. It's all like working and coming in. But it's still not enough. I mean, but that's a whole debate about the end, because Did he die on stage and the end wasn't real, right? Like no

Avery: 16:12

one is also a narcissists thing, though. Like, when you're completely self interested. If you just keep moving for long enough, you get the thing that you want, like, even when he got locked out of the stage, and then he like comes in, because he's so single minded about it, it like, makes everybody else care about it. I don't know, not gonna go off much longer on that. But I think that personality type is interesting. I'm trying to be a therapist, probably.

Rosey: 16:44

It is interesting. It's definitely interesting. And like, you used the word compelling earlier, like, I watched the movie, it wasn't like, I couldn't get through it. So it was doing a good job of key. I was like, okay, like, well, where's this going? Even though I didn't care where it went, I still was like, well, let's get to the end. Like, I'm curious how you. I'm curious how you decide to continue telling this story.

Avery: 17:08

Yeah. And I think that's why the one shot thing was really important to this movie, because I think if it wasn't shot like that, it would be really boring. Because he wouldn't have time to be

Rosey: 17:18

bored. Right? I mean, same with you just said that about the music. Like they pulled all like all the elements they use, they used very well, like the tools were used, and very complementary to each other.

Avery: 17:30

Well, and now I kind of felt like a play to me, because I feel like when you're putting on a play everything the recipe has to be like so tight. Yes. You know,

Rosey: 17:40

they did it in 29 days. Wow. which is short for people who don't know a big movie. Like that's very fast. And he it's because he wanted to keep the momentum up for that like because it has that one take feel. So I thought that was interesting. And that makes sense. And it would make it feel more like a play like I bet on set. It had more of that theater energy than like film energy.

Avery: 18:05

Yeah, I was just gonna ask, Do you know how long it takes actually were? I like how many times I had to do though.

Rosey: 18:11

I don't know the answer to that. All I saw was he wanted it to look like one take. It was 29 days and then he said the set felt like a brotherhood.

Avery: 18:19

Interesting that he uses the word brotherhood. Yes. I have all women are treated.

Rosey: 18:26

I also had that exact same time. So you could have said family or something. But whatever. exclude all the other family members.

Avery: 18:35

It was really horrible to the player. I was like, this has to be a joke, right? Like this has to be satire and I don't know that it was

Rosey: 18:43

I didn't read and again, I didn't like specifically Google like Birdman and gender but I nothing I read commented on gender and I read like six to 10 articles about this movie. That's crazy. Aside from the relationship with the daughter, but then there she's described every time as like the junkie daughter, and I was like,

Avery: 19:04

talking pods. Like when he freaked out about her smoking pot. I was like, I guess maybe it's a gateway drug. Yeah, like sucking shell. Yeah, I

Rosey: 19:13

agree. Are you looking at up now? Because I am curious. Yeah, there's we can't be the only people who watch this movie. It was like genders treated weirdly.

Avery: 19:21

Ya know, the first thing is an academic article written by someone in Canada that analysis of female figures and Birdman. There we go. And then there's the Vernon's crisis of masculinity, which again, I don't care, you're centering men. They're all like random, like blogs. There's nothing no main like you just said there's no main Yeah, nothing

Rosey: 19:46

like popped up about it. And you brought this up that this was 2014. And me too started like the movement began, like 2016 2017. Right. So like this movie would not do well. All right now,

Avery: 20:00

I think it would have an incredible backlash. Yeah. Um, the lesbian scene?

Rosey: 20:06

Yeah. What, why? Why? Well, why? And also, would we even call it? Like they don't give those characters enough space? Like are they lesbians were they just caught up into the moment like they're not necessarily like gay or queer or whatever.

Avery: 20:24

I'm using the word lesbian because can read an article that I'm calling it lesbian, but I think you're absolutely true. I think it was a moment of like, just taking comfort in each other. Yes, women were both hyper sexualized. Not that they were sexual, but they were extremely objectified. So maybe that was the only way. Yeah, they knew how to find peace.

Rosey: 20:48

It felt like believable to me that those two women could have that experience in connection with each other without needing to define something for themselves. But like what that meant about their sexuality, like they seemed like very open people. But I didn't understand what that scene did for them movie like it felt like they just wanted to see more women made out.

Avery: 21:10

Exactly. I was just thinking that I would have enjoyed it if the camera walked away when they started. But yeah, I felt so voyeuristic. And then I was like, Is this a satire of the theater and film where lesbian scenes happens? So men can watch it? Like is that the point of it? No, I don't think so. I don't think it was that self aware. No, I

Rosey: 21:37

don't like that. So well. It was self aware. But the point it was intentionally trying to make which was mostly about like a man struggling with ego. It wasn't Yeah, that were maybe of everything else it did. I mean, even the scenes because we haven't talked about Edward Norton yet. Yeah. Who? I don't know. Whatever just seemed to be like another example of an egotistical man. Like he was something for Michael Keaton to fight back against. But the scenes with Edward Norton and women are horrifying. Oh, you

Avery: 22:07

think so? Yeah, you didn't. I mean, part of it was the way that he treated Naomi was

Rosey: 22:12

yeah, it was horrifying. I guess I wouldn't use the word horrifying with him and Emma Stone.

Avery: 22:16

Yeah, it was cute. How he was like, I see you. Yeah. But then, you know, in a month, he would have just been treating her the way Oh, yeah. Well, not.

Rosey: 22:26

I did not watch that as the beginning of a love story. I was like, you might like hook up and okay.

Avery: 22:32

But it was for her. I think she?

Rosey: 22:35

I don't know. I feel like she's smarter than that. Maybe not. But it doesn't matter

Avery: 22:40

how smart you are. No, that's true. That's really true. And when you have daddy issues, which I hate using the word daddy issues, but when you have issues with men in your life, and you have a man being like, I see you and you're powerful and big, you're gonna fall in love with that. Because you're gonna fall by forgot about his speech, and even him being like, I'm afraid I won't be able to get it up like Yeah.

Rosey: 23:05

Yeah, no, that's over there with our Yeah, that's fair. I was tense every time she was sitting up on that thing. off on the edge. Really?

Avery: 23:15

Yeah. It's so funny how we have opposite experiences. I was like, not worried about it at all, because she didn't want to kill herself.

Rosey: 23:22

Oh, I wasn't worried. I wasn't worried she'd jump. It was just like, that's the same feeling I get if you and I were on a hike, and you were leaning towards it towards the edge. I'd be like, Don't Paul. Oh my god, I have to like grab your sweater. Like I just kept being like, can you just put one leg on the other side? Fear of heights thing that I definitely wasn't watching it thinking like, oh god, she's gonna decide to jump. I felt like her scenario was symbolizing. Like, I'm not gonna jump. Fuck this. I am in control.

Avery: 23:47

Totally. Yeah. How did you feel at the end? When he was standing at the window? You're like, second jump.

Rosey: 23:55

Like to be jumped or not? And then I can really, because this has happened to me like in film school or even in like English class, when you have to write about like theme or what did the ending really mean? Or was it this? Or was it that like, I don't love ambiguity, like as a human in my life, I struggle with it. So in art, I feel similarly I'm like, well, just ship tell me if he's flying or not. But that's not the point. That wasn't the point of the scene to tell. You

Avery: 24:21

know, I also read that they changed the ending like three or four times so theory that they didn't really they did an ambiguous ending because they were like,

Rosey: 24:30

Yeah, I mean, I read an artist side, some of the people involved that were like, We didn't really know what the ending was, or what it means.

Avery: 24:38

But I think you've implied this earlier, and I was thinking about this. I felt like he probably died on stage. And this was all like, his consciousness resolving before he died.

Rosey: 24:52

I didn't think that in the moment, but I thought it like I did think about this movie after washing it, which I think is a sign of a powerful story. Right. And I like trying to give a compliment. And I think that's what I think happened. I think he because then you do see Birdman again when he's taking the thing off his bandages off his face and it looks like a beak and Birdman is there but he's now like silent.

Avery: 25:19

Doesn't he say goodbye? When he's out there.

Rosey: 25:23

Michael Keaton Birdman. Oh, you're right. So maybe like I'm dead. I'm leaving you

Avery: 25:26

behind. Yeah. And liberated. Yeah. Yeah. He

Rosey: 25:29

says goodbye and fuck you.

Avery: 25:32

Yeah. And then the fact that Emma Stone comes in and is like, yeah, so overwhelmed by seeing him fly. Maybe that's also this is why they fucking get it. Yeah. Because it makes you think that at the deepest layer, he really just wants to be like, admired by his daughter and like, loved by his daughter. But even that is our sister because it's not about her.

Rosey: 25:55

Because it was about her. He would have stayed in the bed while she got a vase. Right.

Avery: 25:59

There's also a reading maybe meant he's dead already. Yeah, key.

Rosey: 26:05

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I read. I mean, people had that idea, too. I didn't think that I wasn't watching it thinking this is a like fever dream or all in his psyche after death.

Avery: 26:15

My the way that I came to reading it was that it was a completely normal, but no story that we're seeing from his point of view. And he's a narcissist. Yeah,

Rosey: 26:28

that's what I read it as too. Because like,

Avery: 26:31

even when he goes flying for the first time, and he you see him, like, come down and go into the theater. But then you see the taxi guy can say like, you have to pay me. So that was really funny. I like that about it like normal life. And he's just crazy. He

Rosey: 26:49

is not living the right way. But yeah, but he's like not living in the same reality. Right as everybody else which I think narcissists aren't they are living in their own story. They are the main character at all times of their story.

Avery: 27:02

I'm like, arguably, we all are the main character, but he doesn't seem to like even the way people are acting other people are acting is like, not human. Like he's human. But no one else is human. Like, he doesn't see other people as three dimensional people. He sees them as like, cardboard cutouts stuck characters in his life.

Rosey: 27:25

Yes. They're all like, slotted into a bucket of who they represent to him. Yeah, it's weird. What did you think of Edward Norton's character?

Avery: 27:33

So I similarly fucking hated him for the first half. And then my The second was like, I like, you know, like, I don't think he's a good person. But I would probably hang out with him

Rosey: 27:46

being a night out with him would be fun. Like that would Yeah, we didn't know what was gonna happen. High energy.

Avery: 27:52

Yeah, he puts you out of your comfort zone. Yeah, but I also think at his base, like, he's really just a scared little kid. Yeah, who's really good at acting? Yeah. And Edward Norton did that character arc really? Well, I think because at first you're like, This guy's a dick. And then you see and peel the layers back a little bit.

Rosey: 28:13

I agree with you on that. And he definitely just seems like he's just trying to protect himself. Like inside. There's just like a nine year old boy trying to like punch back. The other thing. So the one I don't know the other actresses name the character or the actor, but the other woman in the play.

Avery: 28:29

She was so beautiful, gorgeous, like an objectifying way. Like, just like a beautiful person. I

Rosey: 28:37

agree. The thing I was gonna say about that was when she first said she was pregnant to him. I was like, Oh, good. God. No, no, no, no, no, no, he he's not a good dad that has been established. I don't. And he's not interested in like trying again, or attempting to be a good dad. So best for all that it's not a thing.

Avery: 28:58

It was really sad when she was like, I really wanted to be a mom. Yeah, my body has a different opinion. So much of how this movie treats women made me feel so gross. So like her first scene, where she like, puts his hand on her crotch. And then the camera follows her up. And she's being a little like, coy. The whole time is just like, I want to hit the person behind the camera right now.

Rosey: 29:22

Yeah, and that they even show that a guy was like watching them. And then she's like into that,

Avery: 29:28

also. And it's weird, because these are all things that as a woman I've felt and I felt was relatable, but they were so condescending, like the way that they were portrayed was so like, there's just so little empathy.

Rosey: 29:47

I agree. So one of the alternate endings that I read about was that after he, I guess it would have been after he jumped on flew out of the window. The next scene was going to go back to the theater winding through the hallways you ended up in the his dressing room, but it's Johnny Depp, and he's getting ready. And then you in his head, he hears Jack Sparrow from Pirates of the Caribbean. And it just like starts a new like now Johnny Depp is trying to put a play on because he's no longer famous because of heat got hot from this one thing and is done. And they like thought about it being different characters.

Avery: 30:26

What do you think of that? In some ways?

Rosey: 30:29

I kind of like it, it seems almost more self aware of like, this whole thing's almost a farce or something like it's just this repetitive thing. I didn't love it. I didn't read it being like, Oh, God, that should have been the ending. Yeah, I don't know. What do you think?

Avery: 30:44

I think that Michael Keaton is like, for lack of a better word, like the heart and soul of this movie. And it really is about him. And making it about this, like larger pattern wouldn't fit the rest of the money. He is lovable. I don't know if he felt that way. But I felt like his energy was like, Oh, I don't make you could be good.

Rosey: 31:08

Yeah, I feel that I get what you're saying. But you could be good. But he in general doesn't do that. Doesn't give me that feeling like in one like as a things like as an actor? Person? Yeah. I don't feel unsafe around him, though. There are some actors where you're like, Oh, God, I don't want to like engage with anything you're doing. Oh, yeah. I also, I agree, I don't think it would have landed correctly. If it was if they did the Johnny Depp thing. I just

Avery: 31:36

really wonder what Michael Keaton thinks of it. Because I kind of feel like it could have been a situation where the director and Michael Keaton had a different opinion of who he was

Rosey: 31:46

on what Yeah, who he was and what the movie was. Yeah, I don't know. That's a good point. I didn't look into what he thought of it. And most of the quotes in the articles I found more from Alejandro, like they were all from the director,

Avery: 31:57

no would be more interesting. Like, I almost want them to remake this movie and be it the exact same plot. But follow the women.

Rosey: 32:06

The women are interesting. And you barely got to see them in a like, real way.

Avery: 32:10

And I'm sure there was so many other things happening in that theater that he had no idea was going on. Yeah, like people with the curl and like, I don't know,

Rosey: 32:19

yeah, I mean that you got like snippets of some of those other people, but again, just from his own, like him walking by them. There were a handful of scenes he wasn't in but not a lot.

Avery: 32:28

Not a lot, mostly with Edward Norton right? There instead. Okay, so it had a budget of 17 million and worldwide, it's made $103.2 million. So it's pretty good. Yeah, that's good. A rotten tomatoes. It holds an approval rating of 91%. In 2015. The film was named as one of the top 50 films of the decade so far by The Guardian, internationally, people like it. I guess in Germany, it has a really high rating. Everyone loves the camera work.

Rosey: 32:59

The camera work was impressive. And the music even if I didn't like it, I found very impressive. The musician Antonio Sanchez would play and Alejandro would like sit across from him in a chair and like lift his arm when like a door would be opening. And then he changed the improvise. I mean, the whole thing is improvised because it's just

Avery: 33:19

that's really cool. Which is very cool. summaries or negative Vanity Fair called the film, Hori, H O A R Why not like a prostitute or a witch. I don't even know what that mean either. And deceptively simple, which is kind of what we're saying. Like it's pretending to be this like big deep thing. But like, really, it's just exactly what it is. hoary means old and trite. So the Vanity Fair was like, we've seen this before. It's boring.

Rosey: 33:50

Yeah,

Avery: 33:51

I mean, I liked it. Stare. But I think what's dangerous. So that is the poll of like, This is important when Yeah, the things that are doing are just advancing a white man's nurses. Yeah, nurses,

Rosey: 34:05

even if the whole movie is just about ego, like, Okay, I knew white men had egos, and that they could be destabilizing. Like, what good is that to see? Like, oh, now that's happened is I spent two more hours thinking about that.

Avery: 34:20

One thing I did like, is the portrayal of like that voice in your head that you can't get to shut the fuck up. Yeah, I did like that. Yeah. But again, I think it would have been interesting to see other people's voices to Yes, like Naomi Watts is voice in her head.

Rosey: 34:37

And that was a that could have been a cool opportunity to show the differences to in gender and like what we've been taught because he was being taught like, be stronger, be tougher, fight back. You're the best. You're the best. And not every woman but Naomi Watts, his character's voice I think would have been like you're not good enough. You don't deserve this. You don't need to be happy or like whatever it is, and that would have been interesting.

Avery: 34:59

Yeah. But I know we have to wrap up but again, it just reminded me like how angry and judge this fell made me feel. Yeah, like when she was like, Why do I have so little self esteem? Why can't I just leave this guy and I was like, fuck you. Why are you blaming her and saying she has low self esteem? Yeah. For being with like a manipulative person. Yeah. I just hated that.

Rosey: 35:25

Yeah, I didn't think about that. They're blaming, blaming her. They blamed all the women for their circumstances.

Avery: 35:32

Yeah. So 187 Academy Awards, like you said, for Best Picture, Best Director, Best Original Screenplay and Best Cinematography. Michael Keane was nominated for Best Actor Edward Norton and Emma Stone were nominated and Best Supporting acting categories, and it received nominations for sound editing and sound mixing. He Keaton also got his first Golden Globe award winning Best Actor in the film won a Golden Globe Award for Best Screenplay. So it

Rosey: 36:04

swept Yeah, I don't know enough about boyhood to get into it, but it beat boyhood which they spent how long? Like 12 years,

Avery: 36:11

12 years. So yeah, the other ones that were nominated were American Sniper sniper, which I never saw. Grand Budapest Hotel, The Imitation Game Selma, the theory of everything and whiplash. 2014 was pre me too.

Rosey: 36:26

Yeah. Was I mean, even American Sniper. I know that's a different story. But those are Theory of Everything. I mean, all of those are just white male stories. They're different tones. But is that right?

Avery: 36:38

Yeah, except for Selma. Selma is our one key and yeah, what's coming?

Rosey: 36:43

So that was Birdman. Thanks for listening. Oh. Next week, talks about bridgerton Season One in anticipation of season two, which is coming out soon. And we're going to have a surprise guests with us, which we're looking forward to. In the meantime, you can find us on social media. We are the rift pod everywhere. And you can also find links to them in the description of this episode.

Avery: 37:18

Yeah. Then we'll see you next week. See you next week. Bye.